Is it an inadequacy of system-program or people problem?

Petch

Here is a good topic that P'Jade rise up regarding to our brother and sister at church. We can share your input here.

Quote from P'Jade...

"Wondered why TMC couldn't hook someone to stay last long (enough)... umnnn good point... we need to consider ourselves that why we couldn't keep people with us till last... is that an inadequacy of system-program or people problem? why people come and go easily... umnnn"

( สงสัยว่าทำไมสมาชิกใหม่จึงไม่ค่อยจะมาร่วมกันอย่างต่อเนื่อง เป็นเพราะการจัดระบบและรายการของคริสจักรไม่ค่อยดึงดูด หรือจะเกี่ยวกับด้านความสัมพันธ์ที่ไม่ค่อยกะชับ ) แปลถูกหรือแพงไปอ่ะปล่าว?

SweetJade · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject:

Petch, it's not neccessary for new members only, our long-time members as well... Wink

Last week i spoke with someone at the church regarding why we encourage our members to help out other church for the afternoon program or special programs... the answers were vary, but one of them was-- it's a good chance for those who are singles and youngs to have a chance to involve with the church's activities... i wondered, why has to be at 'other church' why not at 'TMC'? because TMC morelikely family participants? not for all those who are singles?

Why other church can have variety programs that suite certain age of people, but not at TMC? why don't we encourage our single members to start doing something for their own group and for God's sake? why we have to let our young people to find another green pasture outside TMC? I don't mean that I'm selfish not to help other church grow... my point is that we're (TMC) stop growing too... put in this way, if you're not healthy, how could you carry lame people to the destination?

different people, different point of views. however, as a church leader... i think that if we let our members go out and find other pasture to nurture their soul--this is wrong approach... if we lack of something, prayfully ask God to show us what we should do for our TMC's members... family group, senior group, and single group... even our kids group!

we might have many reasons to anti this idea, but the problem is we have never tried. some might say, because we are a small group of people... not too many people at the TMC... well, let's see this... we're (average) about 37 people with many groups of age... we just lack of a good 'visionary leadership' if in each group of ages has one visionary leader, he/she will form their groups with spiritual activities to enhence their own group's members. --appoint someone to lead... we may need to encourage our 'deacons' to learn to lead others...

my thought is we all (TMC) need to grow up and be creative to feed our own souls (by God's grace, we can)... if we're still staying where we were, we'll not have any motivation to bring new people into the church, and TMC will have average about 37 people for another 10 more years. (worse, some people might go to find another pastures if they feel that their soul are still hungry and TMC couldn't feed them)
_________________
SweetJade
...Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edified.
If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 1 Cor.8:1b-3 ~NASV~

SweetJade · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject:

'ภาระใจ' is the key TMC needs... actually, we already have it. Most of us have this quality... we just need more guidance of what we should do next, or some more creative ideas how to develop our potentials to serve God at TMC.

We are in a good shape for having small groups, home church, party, and such. that is very good and is our strengths. However, we may need to develop our Sunday afternoon program that help enhence each one of us grows in God's will. now we have Women's prayer on the third week every month, Prayer group on Sunday early morning...

I'm thinking about the worship team... if we have a worship team gathering for a longer informal practice--may be on Saturday or Sunday afternoon? that musicians, singers, whoever love to worship come to practice... can be once or twice a month? --i think, our worship team is a bit weak and team members haven't had a close relationship... it needs to be enhenced by God's word and knowledge of worshiping in the Spirit. i don't mean how to play good instruments or how to have a wonderful voice...(but it's essential too) i mean, learn how to worship God with all our hearts and spirits... not just program that we have to do on sunday morning... many people will look at us perform music on stage... no no... i mean something deeper and beyond the performance... the inner attitude that will set us free from those performance... i didn't mean everyone now performing without the hearts of worhip or the spirits.. i mean... something that we need to learn to do it deeper than we are... 'a freedom to praise God...'

I don't mean that i am there... i'm learning too... and if we all have the same direction, vision to develop our worship life... the greatest moment will be happened... and our lives will focus more on serving God at TMC.
_________________
SweetJade
...Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edified.
If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 1 Cor.8:1b-3 ~NASV~

Petch · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject:

I agree with P'Jade. Smile

Petch · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject:

Here is my thought...

เราเป็นคริสจักรที่สบาย ๆ ใครจะมาจะไปก็ได้ เราก็เลยไม่ได้มีมาตราการอย่างไรกับการประกาศ ติดตาม และหนุนใจ
การภิบาลสมาชิกก็แบบสบาย ๆ แล้วแต่เวลาที่มีอำนวย

สมาชิกทุกคนก็ล้วนแต่เป็นคนดี ใครขอความช่วยเหลืออะไรก็จะช่วยเท่าที่ทำได้

กลุ่มคนส่วนใหญ่ก็อยู่ในวัยมีครอบครัว เวลาจึงค่อยข้างจะหมดไปกับการใส่ใจกับลูกของตน

ความสัมพันธ์เราก็ดี ยิ้มให้กันเวลาเจอ นินทากันเวลาจาก ชมได้แต่ห้ามติ คนมาใหม่อาจจะทำตัวลำบากเพราะความที่เราเป็นส่วนตัวอยู่แล้ว จะสนิทก็ต้องใช้เวลา

คนที่มาแล้วต้องให้ นานไปก็อาจจะล้า ส่วนคนที่มาเพราะหวังจะรับ อาจจะต้องอำลาเพราะที่โบสถ์ไม่มีให้

มีอาจารย์ได้ให้คำแนะนำว่า ต้องเริ่มจากภายในก่อน ชีวิตที่มีพระเจ้าก็จะสำแดงความรักของพระองค์ออกมา จากตัวเอง ถึงครอบครัว จากครอบครัวถึงคริสจักร จากคริสจักรสู่ชุมชน Wink

Hong · Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject:

พี่เจ ฮ้งเห็นด้วยกับพี่เจ ตอนนี้ไทยมิชชั่นต้องการผู้นำที่ยอมเสียสละเวลาส่วนตัวของตัวเองมาช่วย งานของคริสตจักรจริงๆ ถ้าพี่น้องไทยมิชชั่นต่างเห็นนิมิตเดียวกัน งานคริสตจักรมาก่อน เชื่อได้เลย พระเจ้าจะอวยพรคริสตจักรของเราให้ก้าวไปข้างหน้า ไม่เพียงแต่อวยพระพรให้กับคริสตจักร ยังอวยพรสมาชิกในคริสตจักรร่วมทั้งคนในครอบครัวของสมาชิกด้วย พระคุณซ้อนพระคุณเลยล่ะ

pvatcha · Silver Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 78

พัฒนาไม่หยุดยั้ง รวมพลังหนุ่มสาวไทย
ไทยมิชชั่นยังก้าวไกล เพื่อคนไทยในต่างแดน

Vee · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:24 am Post subject:

พี่เจวีเห็นด้วยอย่างยิ่ง สำหรับวีไม่มีอะไรจะพูด ใครอยากให้วีทำอะไร ขอให้บอก เรื่องรับใช้พระเจ้าถึงไหนถึงกัน ถ้าเรื่องจะให้วีเป็นผู้นำทำโน้นทำนี่วีขอเวลาอีกซักพักเพราะวีก็เป็นคริสเตียนใหม่ วียังเป็นเด็กนัก อยากได้พี่เลี้ยง อยากได้ผู้นำ ฝากอธิษฐานด้วยค่ะ

hotcoconut · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject:

Was this topic raised up because we were talking about Tip and Praaw?
I thank God that a lot of people have vision for our church and want to see the church grow. But I would like to share how ThaiMission has been a blessing in my life.

I grew up with this church. I accepted Christ and became real christian at this church. I still remember my first day at TMC like it was yesterday. P'Petch gave me a guitar strap on the first day I came to this church (to lure me in...haha) and I still use it every week when I play guitar for worship.

I admit that the church went through a lot and there were many times I planned to leave. However, somethings always happened and kept me with TMC...it's probably a message from God. Now I look back, I see great blessings and I think I have come this far partly because of my brothers and sisters at Thaimission. Of course, there are a lot of things that can be improved at our church, this is true for other churches as well. We may be small, but I see the very close relationship among the few families at our church. I'm homeless (now), but I feel very warm and grateful for our tiny Christian community.

So, in my opinion, TMC has its attractiveness. We should also understand that when people leave our church, it does not necessarily signify failure of the church. We are in a country where Thai people is relatively small community. Even fewer are christians and even fewer are local permanent residents. People come to and leave our church for different reasons, not all because we fail to show love of Christ. A lot of it also has to do with style and chemistry among the people.

You want younger generation? Take a look at P'Golf-Ching's church. I went there and spent time with them. But to be honest, you know their style are much different from ours. Can you tolerate them singing non-christian music? Can we set up another set of worship in late afternoon so more of them can come and participate? Are you willing to compromise with what the young request? Really deal with their family, drug, abuse problem? I am not sure, but I see P'Golf doing it. He works hard and tries to do everything he can to save one or two of those kids who we see coming to church just for singing. I know I can't do what P'Golf is doing. And I actually thank God that Tip is part of the work and some of as are supporting them. Nong Praaw has formed a better relationship with people at P'Golf's church and I understand that its' more convenient for Tip to go there and help them. However, this is by no means our failure...it just chemistry and relationship.

But P'Golf's goal also is not to create a tight relationship among the senior believers, to strengthen the belief of people who already accepted Christ which is as important and some of us are doing it.

What should we do? Create more programs for ourselves? Assign more leaders for outreach? Is that what really keeping "YOU" at our church? I have served at church before and I realized creating more programs, assigning more leaders are just gonna keep whoever is already busy even busier. People who will attend will be the same who has been attending everything else. Who has been absent will be absent. A group-focus activity is an absolute great idea; however, with very few people at our church, I doubt if the yield will be greater than the many activities we already have now. I believe what keep you at our church is personal relationship and the bonding rather than the programs or leaders of our church. We fellowship during lunch, prayer meeting, bible study and even clean up...

Another meeting for music practice while we are struggling going to the cell group, morning bible study, the prayer meeting and everything else?

The purpose of music practice should be to improve music leading skills and to fellowship in that context, but not to be an additional activity to keep people at our church. We have 2-3 people who can play instruments and a few who have potential for worship leading. If anyone has the calling and want to learn more about music worship, I'm very happy work with them. If you just want to gather and sing, we can always do that at cell group, home church, etc., but just state as such.

I think we are who we are and it finally still boils down to being a witness of Christ through life. We are relatively small group of people and we have enough "leader" titles and set-up activities. I think we are doing well among ourselves, but just have to make more friends and create more relationships with others...

It's easy to just say there's no good leader, there's not enough activities. But frankly, I don't think we need any of those to build a good relationship with someone. I think we individually should focus on what each of us can do. At least commit to whatever we already have. Try to support your church activities, go to cell group, bible study, do your homework, call your brothers or sisters, pray hard for your church and friends, help others who need help (eg. p'golf's church), etc. If each of us accomplishes all those, I think that is the ultimate success. With our cute, tiny community, I think that's a lot easier than finding a new leader, revolutionize the church, etc.

Well, that's just my opinion kub.
_________________
Eddie
"Be strong and take courage...Do not fear or be dismayed...for the Lord will go before you...and His light will show the way." Joshua 1:9

SweetJade · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject:

Great opinion Eddie, and i wholeheartedly do agree with what you said.

however, i still think that you have missed my points.

P.S. this topic is not raised up because of Tip and Praew at all. besides, i'm so gald that nong Praew is connected to this group and will have a chance to know God. this is a good news.
_________________
SweetJade
...Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edified.
If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 1 Cor.8:1b-3 ~NASV~

hotcoconut · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:

I went back and reread your idea. I probably did miss your point and I apologize. I just want to make sure we don't bring the wrong solution to the right problem or vice versa.

I do see that people who have had experience in the true singing worship may find it kinda lacking at our Sunday church. If people want to get some experience with deeper worship through music and singing, I am very happy to contribute.

However, I don't think we really have a real worship team... it's like our pastor, our deacon and a homeless (me) and someone with overhead machine getting together and that's almost the whole church already. I think people who are interested can just gather together and we do a short session on a Sunday afternoon. I can start...and we can talk about it more. We can also set one part of a Friday cell group session just for the real worship.

Now I wanna go to bed....
_________________
Eddie
"Be strong and take courage...Do not fear or be dismayed...for the Lord will go before you...and His light will show the way." Joshua 1:9

Petch · Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:

Wow! that's a very good idea. Thanks Eddie and P'Jade for sharing. Smile

SweetJade · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject:

Eddie, you're not a homeless though... at least 4 people who are now in your life affirm that you're one of our family members!! Smile

BTW, actually, I do have a worship lesson... that i tended to teach long time ago but haven't had a chance to do so... if you're interested to have a look of this lesson, i can bring it to you this saturday. it's not a book, i bought it online from a church up north... it's a very good lesson for those who are hungry to worship God (well, it's not about playing instrument tips or how to have a good voice; it's about learning God's heart, God's desire for us to worship Him. --well, you may have other lesson in mind too... Laughing

Finally, I apologize everyone too if my posts weren't quite clear... however, i'm confident that my first intention was to glorify God... and I wanted to see TMC grows in God's grace!! --including me as the great sinner--
_________________
SweetJade
...Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edified.
If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 1 Cor.8:1b-3 ~NASV~

Hong · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

เห็นด้วยพี่เจ เอ็ดดี่คิดว่าตัวเองเป็นHOMELESSได้อย่างไร เอ็ดดี่มีบ้านอยู่อาศัยเอ็ดดี่ยังบอกว่าอยู่อย่างอบอุ่น แล้วก็มีงานทำ มีอนาคตที่มีเกียรติ(นายแพทย์เอกรักษ์) เพียงเอ็ดดี่ไม่มีญาติแท้ๆอยู่เมืองนี้เท่านั้น แต่เอ็ดดี่มีพี่ ป้า น้า อา นัองอีกหลายคนในไทยมิชชั่นให้นับเป็นญาติอยู่แล้วน่ะ

Petch · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:10 am Post subject:

ใช่ ๆ